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Two things that I wanted to follow up on – one brought up by Wanda on Facebook and one brought up by Joe on the blog. Luke gets my comment of the week.
Wanda asked if there was a difference between being born sinful and being born full of sin. That is an interesting question. It caused be to think. I responded by saying being born sinners is Status. Being born full of sin is Substance.
What I am suggesting is the we are born into families that have broken relationships, and that we are born with the ability (and propensity) to foul things up all on our own!
I once heard Brian McLaren say (this my memory and not a direct quote) if you mean by original sin that humans don’t need any help figuring out how to mess things up and to be selfish… then yes I believe in it. But if you mean something at the cellular level or that means babies who die are going to hell… then no.
That might be a good way to say that.
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Joe brought up a scenario about prayer – “A recent acquaintance requested a group of people to pray for his friend who had sent suicidal text messages to his wife and kid. So we did. There’s a relational connection there, but it’s a couple of degrees separate. There wasn’t anything we could do OTHER than pray… By the way, the news was good, they got to him in time.”
Let me put forward a definite theory and tell me what you think:
If we were having a small group meeting or a night of prayer and Joe said “God told me that we need to pray for Mike he is planning to commit suicide.” We would pray for Mike. But how would we know if it worked? Would we just end the meeting and think ‘we did what we could – we did what God wanted us to do’? But what if Joe said “God told me that it worked and Mike is going to be fine.” Then we go home having detected and resolved a conflict without having any contact with ‘Mike’?
Now you may choose to concentrate on Joe’s quality of discernment or his track record. But what I am saying is that though those scenarios may be fantastic and exceptional – I actually think that it is not how prayer is designed and it is not how God wants work. Some people may be called to that kind of intercession. I just think that it is not and should not be the normative mode of prayer for the majority of believers. I think that we should pray for people that we know.
I am actually saying that God wants to work through relationship and wants us to pray for people that we know (even our enemies as Luke pointed out). Maybe it is just me – but I do not want to go prayer meetings where people are pulling things out of thin air where there can then be no verification or validation. I want to go to a prayer meeting where we pray for people that we know by name and then go love them in tangible ways.
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Luke had the comment of the week! “I feel like the traditional idea of Original Sin views sin as kind of a cosmic STD. I think the idea of sin as primarily broken relationship is much better, and much more in line with the biblical narrative.”
That got me thinking: we do talk about Sin as an STD – a Spiritually Transmitted Disease! That is why you have to be so careful about who you interact with – and once you get an STD… it can be tough to get rid of and cause a lot of damage to your health and be passed onto others… Wow. Scary.
I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend not matter what the weather is like where you live. I am researching a major project on the topic of the history of Practical Theology.
Let’s keep the conversation going! I will put up the new Podcast on Tuesday entitled “Jesus is not Violent” .
November 12, 2010 at 7:35 pm
>OK, so religion and prayer are relational. God works in relationships. I agree. Here is a question: if I pray to God, and my prayer is for a request, but this request is outside of a relationship, does that prayer still have merit, and will God still respond? For instance. My car would not start this morning. I asked God to help it start. It did. So this is either answered prayer or coincidence. Do you think this kind of prayer ever has value?
November 12, 2010 at 9:33 pm
>Sure – I believe in this type of prayer. Here is my concern:1) that we not make this type of praying our main type of praying.2) that we not talk about prayer in ways that tell people that if they pray and the car does NOT start that B) it says something about God or B) that it says something about them. Sometimes cars start. Sometimes they don't.3) that we recognize that there are lots of people without cars. Some people pray FOR cars and do not have one. Some families have 3 cars and get chaffed if one of them doesn't start. but yes. I am ok with God helping cars start. 😉
November 12, 2010 at 10:12 pm
>I have a question about the original sin discussion. Biblically speaking what changes when we switch to a “status” over “substance” viewpoint? I would tend to follow and agree with the status side of things, but I also think that it might be more than just status. Our relationship with God is a broken relationship, and this broken relationship is, in actuality, a sin. It is an aberration of what should be. What flows from the Sermon on the Mount is an understanding that at the very heart of man the sin occurs before the action. This is where I agree with you, I think you wrote that it was a “broken relationship” over the “construct of a fall”. Since the relationship is broken our compass points towards self instead of God. This, regardless of age, leaves us in the presence of God’s wrath. Could there be room for an understanding that our broken and restored relationship with God is not fully what we see it to be. Scripture is partly a description of our relationship, and this description goes slightly farther than we can comprehend. Not so much because we lack intelligence, but rather because we will always be limited in our understanding the limitless. Scripture was never designed to answer all of the difficult questions of life. It was designed to bring us into a restored relationship, including the directions for keeping our compass pointed towards Christ.I headed this direction in thought because two times in the discussion on “original sin” children were brought up. I do agree with pushing a status over substance viewpoint, but I still don’t see the connection where an answer is given towards a child’s relationship with God essentially being any different than ours. God did not give us His standards for His judgments on those who are unable to make eternal decisions (Non compos mentis). I think this creates a different question of why we do not trust God with our children and those who are mentally unable to realize the broken relationship?
November 12, 2010 at 10:30 pm
>Ya know what, I like what you are up to. Let me give ya 3 reasons why1) you have clearly thought about this and its implications on PEOPLE. I like that.2) What you said about Scripture buys your some chips at this table partner (using a Wild West theme there). Somebody says something like that and I am willing to see what they say next.3) Once you get rid of the Status and Substance construct being primary, I willing to give people lots of room to take this conversation in different directions.Having said that, i just want to clarify one thing. I am not just looking to have status over substance. I want relegate them BOTH to secondary concern and FOCUS on Relationship and maybe even "Covenant". I want to have the conversation about sin and love and redemption and children and all that other stuff without either Status or Substance being a determining factor in the conversation. What I am interested in is a wholly relational approach. I am not presuming to know the outcomes or resulting implications. I am not trying to produce something or control the conclusions! I am concerned that we start in the right place, that we have an integral approach and that we a participatory process. That we are in dialogue with the texts of scripture, that we are in community and that we are available to the revelation that comes from God (for Christians that it uttermost is the revelation of Jesus as the Word of God). All of that is to say 'Yes' I agree with you. Our relationship with God is not fully what it was meant to be. And 'no' we don't trust God with those things that we do not understand or people who are outside our 'norm' of expectation… this second thing might be the result of the first :)thank you SO much for the note. YOu have me thinking…
November 19, 2010 at 3:38 pm
>Prayer: It's hard to imagine God being concerned about my car starting, yet somehow I know He does — I just have a difficult time seeing God as a magician, or for that matter, playing favorites. Does God really have the magic touch to start a car when it's broken, or is it just that the car needed a little warm up before getting started? What about the dude next door who's car has been broken down for months and has been praying to God for money to fix it and has been bumming rides off family and friends, or riding public transportation to get to work? Does God use His powers to "fix" a ride just because I ask Him too? Maybe He does — I'm not totally convinced either way.Does God play favorites? Again, this I'm not sure. I've recently been praying for God to provide me with some sort of a "break", like "God, I need something to happen — financially speaking — cause we need help and I'm not sure what else to do." etc. etc. So, seemingly God has answered my prayer request — He has randomly provided me with a better paying job and I wasn't looking for one. I had made a decision to be satisfied and excepting of the job God had provided me. While I am grateful for this new opportunity, there is a part of me that questions "why is God blessing me, and not someone else?" There are plenty of people out there praying to God to provide a job for them to help them make ends meet. And God decided to provide me with another job — while I still had a job.After 20 years of praying to God and knowing Jesus, I still don't understand how and or why it works. I know God has full knowledge and understanding of my life and everyone else's life, but it's still a difficult process to understand.I too am not a huge fan of sitting in a circle with my small group or any other size group, and just peppering out random prayers. It feels very empty and shallow to me — almost as if people do it out of feeling obligated or out of effort to being a believer. I want to pray knowing I can do something about it — even if it means driving my ass over to your house to help you start your car.